Next gen 750F cars?

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Next gen 750F cars?

Postby Conway » Wed May 20, 2020 9:12 am

Hi Everyone

While we still have a few weeks to wait for this season to start, I have a question. It concerns the future of this, the longest continually running championship in the world.

What are your views on what could come next, after Fiat 1108cc power? Not this season or next, but in a handful or more of years...

Discuss :)
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Re: Next gen 750F cars?

Postby geofff » Wed May 20, 2020 2:42 pm

If you want to keep the environmental crew of our back then how about batteries and engine from a Prius? :aghast:

I'll get my hat

Geoff

:)
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Re: Next gen 750F cars?

Postby pbove » Wed May 20, 2020 3:11 pm

Interesting thought ....... but...

‘EV’ mode will run the car on electric power alone at speeds of up to 31mph for up to 1.2 miles

As you probably know, the ICE and the Electric motor are combined into one (rather large) unit.

Forget the hat.... I think it's a cricket box that you need! :)
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Re: Next gen 750F cars?

Postby Martin Kemp » Wed May 20, 2020 6:58 pm

Peter, it's deja vu all over again.

I looked into the idea of an electric 750 formula, but the technical difficulties are immense.
Any meaningful performance would require very expensive specialist batteries, circuitry, and voltages too high for safe use by amateurs.

Of course something similar could have been be said of petrol engines which are basically a controlled bomb, but the technical problems have been well understood and standard components available for over a century. But a century ago a few people setting fire to themselves or running down a dozen spectators was considered entirely reasonable.
Nowadays we pay more attention to things like not electrocuting marshals. Perhaps we can move onto electric power in the future but for the time being I think that there are not sufficient cheap standard components and design methods available for us to make our own mini Formula E cars at anything like an affordable cost. We should keep it under review though,

Martin
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Re: Next gen 750F cars?

Postby pbove » Wed May 20, 2020 7:41 pm

Hi Martin,

I could not agree more - it will be some time before EVs become workable in a clubmans race environment, although we do have some JLR guys who understand this much better than I do.

For the next evolution of 750F we need to think about how to solve issues that we foresee in the near to medium term. From my perspective things worth discussing include:

    Should we go for a current production engine - I'm not sure that the 1108 is still made
    Tyres - is there something less heat cycle dependent
    Fuel Injection
    Independent rear suspension to replace the live axle.

Anything I've missed?
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Re: Next gen 750F cars?

Postby pbove » Thu May 21, 2020 12:10 pm

So, just done some research. It looks as though the Panda was available with the 1108 until 2011. Since then it has either a TwinAir or the 1242. Interestingly, they have just released a 1.0 Hybrid with a very small battery which acts like a KERS system, i.e. provides a bit more grunt when it is needed...... maybe a push to pass button for us? :)

So, we should be OK with spares for the 1108 for some time, although I've also heard that big end bolts are getting harder to find, so maybe we just need to sort out that problem.
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Re: Next gen 750F cars?

Postby Martin Kemp » Thu May 21, 2020 1:43 pm

I think that the 1108 engine could last us another 5 years or perhaps a bit longer - particularly if we allow multi point fuel injection and hence a more modern cylinder head. I don't think there is any tearing hurry for that so we could do some testing and research to get a smooth transistion.

A longer term proposal for the power unit might be to specify the power output and make the power source free. I think the club now has access to portable rolling road so this would be feasible - but complicated.

The way motor racing uses tyres for an hour or two and then throws them away is really an offence to the planet. The tyre manufacturers are not going to take too much notice of the 750 formula, but we cam do our bit and save cost by limiting the use of new tyres.

A rough scheme would be to mark the tyres and allow each car 6 new tyres in season. One set of the previous years marked tyres would also be eligible so that would be a maximum of 3 sets of tyres every 2 years on a rolling basis and a minimum of 1 set every 2 years. Of course it needs to be a bit more complicated than that to avoid loopholes and cover special cases, but if the scrutes can do the paperwork it would be workable.

Independent rear suspension. Actually I don't think it is a big deal. The biggest advantage would be adjustable rear camber - the biggest disadvantage would be rear camber change. I would probably go for another de Dion.

Martin
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Re: Next gen 750F cars?

Postby pbove » Thu May 21, 2020 1:53 pm

A rough scheme would be to mark the tyres and allow each car 6 new tyres in season. One set of the previous years marked tyres would also be eligible so that would be a maximum of 3 sets of tyres every 2 years on a rolling basis and a minimum of 1 set every 2 years. Of course it needs to be a bit more complicated than that to avoid loopholes and cover special cases, but if the scrutes can do the paperwork it would be workable.


The club already does this for some of the other formulae. Would it make the racing cheaper or more expensive? Some competitors use second hand tyres which are cheaper........
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Re: Next gen 750F cars?

Postby Martin Kemp » Thu May 21, 2020 6:02 pm

We would have to write the rules so that secondhand tyres and older tyres could be fitted into the system. I think it could be done, but it will take a bit more thought than I have given it so far. If the system were phased in, grandfathering existing tyres, then after a couple of seasons all tyres would have a history of ownership and could be traded without any shenanigans (it took a few goes to get that past the spell checker)

Martin
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Re: Next gen 750F cars?

Postby Andrew Gent » Sun May 31, 2020 8:31 pm

What we need to know is what stops people coming into the formula and going to other formulae instead?
Have we ever carried out a survey?
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